I apologize in advance because I know this has been talked about by others before, but I'm looking for help/advice on applying to law school and I know there are multiple lawyers/law students on the board. Also, isn't there someone around here who worked on an admissions board or something like that?
This post was edited on 4/30 9:42 PM by caboose1123
Posted on 2/7 12:52 PM | IP: Logged
Don't do it unless you really understand what you're getting into and what to expect. And I don't recommend the school I went to (not Vanderbilt).
Posted on 2/7 12:57 PM | IP: Logged
If you're a good student and/or really want to be a lawyer, go for it. If you're using it as a crutch because of a tough job market for college grads, tough it out and find a job. Law school will always be there.
As for schools, unless you're going top tier, figure out where you might want to live. Not necessarily a specific city but say, you want to live in Nashville or the South in general - then find a law school that has a high success rate of placing graduates in those locations.
Spivey works or worked in law school admissions and I'm sure he'll chime in.
Posted on 2/7 1:04 PM | IP: Logged
I agree with Commies.
Posted on 2/7 1:06 PM | IP: Logged
I 100% concur with Commies. And definitely talk to Spivey.
Posted on 2/7 1:12 PM | IP: Logged
I really wanted to go to law school. I chose an MBA instead. The LSAT scared the piss out of me. Standardized tests scare me because I don't do well on them. My ACT kept me out of Vanderbilt. An LSat would have kept me out of law school am I was afraid. Don't do it unless you really want to be a lawyer. Being 150k in debt won't be fun if you hate your job.
Posted on 2/7 1:14 PM | IP: Logged
I agree. Unless you get into a top 10 school, avoid the mid tier private schools and go to a state school or even a lower tier state school in the region you want to work. Where I went to school (high/mid tier private school) most of the students don't end up with the employment options they expected. I'm recommending state/lower schools because it's easier academically and easier to finish higher in your class, which gives you more employment options than the type of school I attended, and the tuition is much cheaper. It seemed like a lot of firms would hire a couple of summer associates from each school in their area/region, and your odds are better to be higher in the class in a lesser pool.
Also be careful what you wish for, because a lot of new lawyers hate their jobs yet have to keep them to pay off loans. And a lot of folks get out of practicing law (like myself), not so much because they hate legal work but because working at law firms can really suck and there are better opportunities elsewhere.
This post was edited on 2/7 1:24 PM by Doreking
Posted on 2/7 1:23 PM | IP: Logged
Of course I heard some (but definitely not all) of those things when I was in your shoes, but I was skeptical and thought it would work out great for me. It was basically a bunch of misery and disappointment. Sure I benefit from the legal education, but I should have gone to school elsewhere. I really wish JD/MBA's were only 3 years, because that would definitely be the way to go.
Posted on 2/7 1:28 PM | IP: Logged
Thanks for the replies guys, that's the kind of stuff I've generally heard when I've asked around; my primary choice is in fact a pretty good state school around where I'd like to live.
That said, all the advice I've gotten about applying and whatnot has come from people who attended what I believe is considered a tier-3 school and I'm aiming a bit higher than that. No one in my family/network has attended a more selective school so I'm kind of in the dark about applying.
Posted on 2/7 1:34 PM | IP: Logged
As a geriatric alum of the only law school I am passionate about, I recommend Vanderbilt. I find that wherever you go, being a Vandy Law grad raises eyebrows and esteem. As for career plans, deep sea fishing with a Vandy J.D. is particularly satisfying, or so I'm told.
Landlocked in Pittsburgh, YULKP V.U. J.D. '73
Posted on 2/7 1:51 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by elbert1: As for career plans, deep sea fishing with a Vandy J.D. is particularly satisfying, or so I'm told.
Landlocked in Pittsburgh, YULKP V.U. J.D. '73
This is one of my favorite quotes ever. I may change it to Fordham Law and use it in the future.
One additional note to caboose that I wanted to post is that you should also factor in money. If a law school is willing to lighten your burden, consider that factor. Unless you're talking about a top 10 school, you should weigh heavily the ability to reduce your debt out of law school, even if it means you go to a slightly worse school or one not in your ideal area.
Posted on 2/7 1:55 PM | IP: Logged
Go to medical school instead.
Posted on 2/7 2:25 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by caboose1123: Thanks for the replies guys, that's the kind of stuff I've generally heard when I've asked around; my primary choice is in fact a pretty good state school around where I'd like to live.
That said, all the advice I've gotten about applying and whatnot has come from people who attended what I believe is considered a tier-3 school and I'm aiming a bit higher than that. No one in my family/network has attended a more selective school so I'm kind of in the dark about applying.
You aren't in the dark just blinded by the opportunity outside your door. If you live in Decatur/Huntsville you see it daily-agriculture/crop management/biotech. The global market will invest in and purchase solutions to feeding the human population.
Posted on 2/7 2:58 PM | IP: Logged
I pay a lot (with some school assistance) to go to a t14 law school. While I did not get a 'big firm' job, that was not my primary goal here, so it doesn't make it a bad deal. I would say if you are looking to only do one or two things in one or two areas, go to a school as near to that area as possible for as cheap as possible.
But if you are wanting to work either for the Federal Gov't, or for national public interest jobs, it is a good idea to go to the best (with reasonable financial assistance) law school you get into. But again, if you have your heart set on one particular area, you should probably just stay in that area.
Posted on 2/7 3:53 PM | IP: Logged
Yeah, jobless 3rd year student here. I am glad I went to law school because I want to do this more than anything else I could do (I'd rather play FIFA and watch Quantum Leap or Dateline crime stories all day, but the pay is quite poor.)
I'm emailing you the long story so if you get something from a Vandy email address and someone named Gochenaur that's me.
But the short story is, if you want to be a lawyer do it, but if you don't know for sure or are just looking for a professional degree, there are plenty of really really good reasons not to do it that you should take very seriously.
Posted on 2/7 4:53 PM | IP: Logged
I'll also add that one of my disappointments in law school was the lack of preparation for actual legal jobs. Sure you know how to think like a lawyer/read and write well, but you really are clueless regarding the actual practice of law. I think law school should include more of an apprenticeship aspect, or even problem solving to mimic the real world like business school, rather than being almost exclusively socratic method classes.
This post was edited on 2/7 6:53 PM by Doreking
Posted on 2/7 5:32 PM | IP: Logged
doreking, your concerns are overrated. One of my earliest inspirations as a lawyer was a senior partner sharing the following verity with me well over 30 years ago: "Son, I can train an ape to make scratch marks on a billing sheet." That great practitioner has long since entered eternal retirement but his truth goes marching on.
Posted on 2/7 8:28 PM | IP: Logged
I disagree. I consider law school professional school and the purpose should be to prepare you to be a lawyer. I don't believe it accomplishes this as well as it could, and the fact that lawyers need significant real world (or firm) training to actually know what they are doing is absurd in my opinion.
Posted on 2/7 8:43 PM | IP: Logged
I also don't feel that the 3rd year of law school is justified. By year 3 students have already maxed out in terms of the skills they acquire, and the general/overview material learned in law school is not helpful in the practice of law, not specific enough, and usually irrelevant to the areas of law students end up working in.
Posted on 2/7 8:49 PM | IP: Logged
Doreking, I was just having some fun with you although the quote is as close to verbatim as I can recall. I have been engaged in a civil litigation practice for what is now my 38th year. I was merely attempting to lighten the mood with one of the realities of the profession. Please don't take me seriously on this subject or any other. Remember, I am YULKP!
Posted on 2/7 8:52 PM | IP: Logged
As you can tell, certain aspects of my law school experience get me about as fired up as bad officiating. And I graduated law school over 10 years ago.
This post was edited on 2/7 9:04 PM by Doreking
Posted on 2/7 9:02 PM | IP: Logged
Doreking, where did you attend law school? If you don't mind saying.
Posted on 2/7 9:16 PM | IP: Logged
Starts with an E and ends with a Y.
Posted on 2/7 9:19 PM | IP: Logged
Got it. Just by stereotyping the school, I would've assumed it was great.
Not that it means anything, but Tennessee's law school dean, Doug Blaze, always mentioned how he believed that UT was great at preparing students to be practicing lawyers and not just book worms. I heard him speak around a dozen or so times. Penny White, a law professor at UT who was removed from the Tennessee Supreme Court bench, also believed the same thing. I think someone on here went to UT law, which the school currently ranks around #60.
Posted on 2/7 9:32 PM | IP: Logged
I'm sure I had classmates who thought it was great. But there are definitely those who agree with my take, at least most of the ones I was friends with. I've also heard from those who went there that VU was a better experience.
My school has I think dropped in the rankings a bit since I was there. I think it was top 25 or around 25 at that time.
This post was edited on 2/7 9:45 PM by Doreking
Posted on 2/7 9:44 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Doreking: I'll also add that one of my disappointments in law school was the lack of preparation for actual legal jobs. Sure you know how to think like a lawyer/read and write well, but you really are clueless regarding the actual practice of law. I think law school should include more of an apprenticeship aspect, or even problem solving to mimic the real world like business school, rather than being almost exclusively socratic method classes.
This post was edited on 2/7 6:53 PM by Doreking
+1
I often think that if med schools released doctors upon the general public the way law schools released lawyers into the world that would be the equivalent of "population control."
Posted on 2/7 10:27 PM | IP: Logged
I think pretty much every school that lacks a Supreme Court Justice (i.e., almost every one) uses the "we may not be Yale, but we train great practitioners" line. IMO, you really benefit from three things when trying to be a lawyer and when I'm hiring, I look for two of them in particular:
1) classes with practicing adjunct professors, who bring a practical focus to what they teach and are seasoned in both teaching and being a real lawyer (unfortunately, not really something you can check on a CV, but the problem with law professors in general is most never practiced outside of clerkships);
2) work experience prior to law school (someone who hasn't worked a real first time job often lacks the discipline of being in a real work environment and are too entitled... I generally like people who had real life, as opposed to paralegal experience); and
3) drafting classes on a transcript (as a corporate lawyer, legal writing, evidence and civ pro do nothing for me).
And I can tell you that many law schools are looking at this issue. Fordham is one of about 20 schools that have been considering a greater focus on regulatory law and drafting classes.
Posted on 2/7 10:48 PM | IP: Logged
When I was in law school (and aspiring for corporate/transactional work), there was nothing available to teach you how to draft or negotiate. And really very few relevant classes period.
Posted on 2/7 10:54 PM | IP: Logged
Drafting classes are few and far between in law schools.
Posted on 2/7 11:53 PM | IP: Logged
You should definitely talk to me, lol :)
Posted on 2/8 9:03 PM | IP: Logged
Interesting article I ran across regarding my law school:
Quite late to the party, but I think GoCommies and Doreking nailed it. I took GoCommies advice, along with Spivey's and a few other old time VS posters that are no longer around, and NYD's as well. I ended up at the top ranked state school in the area I knew I was going to practice and am very very very appreciative of my relatively low debt load and that I graduated in '08...the last of the good ol' days.
Doreking also nailed it on another front...law school doesn't do diddly to prep lawyers to be lawyers (especially we transactional types) and it's a travesty we don't do 1.5 years of law school and 1.5 to 2 years of a residency/apprenticeship.
This post was edited on 3/12 12:31 PM by VandyBuck
Posted on 3/12 12:29 PM | IP: Logged
As a minor counterpoint, Doreking and I seem to have gone to the same law school and it now offers some transactional classes. They created a Transactional Law Certificate program with classes like contract drafting, private equity, corporate practice, commercial real estate transactions, etc. I enjoyed those and think the were pretty well taught (mostly adjunct profs who practice). Definitely a bias against that type of teaching for whatever reason though.
Posted on 3/14 9:23 PM | IP: Logged
I didn't know they offered that. Another question--would you recommend the school to a friend, and would you donate? I probably wouldn't do either.
Posted on 3/15 12:25 PM | IP: Logged
That is the million dollar question (literally soon at the rate tuition keeps increasing). It really depends on the friend's situation. Anyone considering law school should ask themselves first whether they absolutely want to be a lawyer for the rest of their lives. I think all graduate school, but especially law school, should be viewed as the correct choice ONLY if it is necessary to get to where you want to be.
As far as our particular training grounds are concerned, I do not think I will be contributing any funds beyond the ones they have already received in tuition. If my friend was considering law school, I think I would only recommend it if they wanted to go to school in the South and work in the Northeast post-graduation. Even then, I would advise them to go to Vandy, Duke, or UVA over it if possible. If they want to work in Atlanta, UGA is a better choice. Birmingham, go to Bama or Stamford. Nashville, I am not well-versed, but imagine UT does better placing graduates than any school except Vanderbilt.
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